tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post65367028944743501..comments2024-03-29T09:21:58.696+00:00Comments on The IPKat: New EPO Guidelines: what do they mean for added subject matter?Verónica Rodríguez Arguijohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05763207846940036921noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-88092390922959138432015-07-21T13:29:03.040+01:002015-07-21T13:29:03.040+01:00I am new to this so I didn't realize that thes...I am new to this so I didn't realize that these tricks were played by lawyers. Hopefully after a few years I'll be better able to judge.<br />Yours,<br />'in house'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-10043569533429299662015-07-21T10:08:51.586+01:002015-07-21T10:08:51.586+01:00I am a little puzzled by in-house liaison's di...I am a little puzzled by in-house liaison's difficulty. I am in private practice and leaving aside the fact I don't have time to get involved in the sorts of activities mentioned, I have no problem telling the associates we deal with to stop sending progress checks to the USPTO or the like and that they should assume that unless we tell them we want to accelerate prosecution, they should assume we have no interest in accelerating prosecution. I also have no problem with making it clear that we will not pay any invoices for those sorts of services. I am not sure why in-house liaison's firm cannot do the same. In my experience, in-house departments are king. We work for a couple of in-house departments and the way it works is that they tell us how they want the work managed and we do as we're told. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-11913640128453871592015-07-20T21:50:26.233+01:002015-07-20T21:50:26.233+01:00Crikey, in house, how could my words have been so ...Crikey, in house, how could my words have been so grievously misunderstood. I apologise for failing to make myself clear enough. Of course your company does not exist to serve the patent attorney profession. It is the other way round. I hope we agree on that. <br /><br />But I meant what I said. Take me at face value please. I'm genuinely surprised that some firms do what you say they do. I do want you to tell me all your other grumbles about the service you are getting from private practice firms, so that my firm can take note, and avoid them.<br /><br />MaxDreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-8388687697005057602015-07-20T20:00:19.495+01:002015-07-20T20:00:19.495+01:00I am most sorry for offending you Mr Drei. In futu...I am most sorry for offending you Mr Drei. In future I will remember that my company exists to serve the needs of the self-serving private practice fraternity of which you are a most humble member.<br />Yours<br />'in house'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-554052633176931872015-07-20T13:09:41.571+01:002015-07-20T13:09:41.571+01:00This is an old PP trick. What is the view of the P...This is an old PP trick. What is the view of the PP Kats on this behavior?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-62967311406259454072015-07-20T12:59:01.150+01:002015-07-20T12:59:01.150+01:00What a startling comment today, from an in-house p...What a startling comment today, from an in-house patent liaison, complaining about outside counsel wasting their clients' time and money.<br /><br />I'm outside counsel, constantly trying to help colleagues here in the firm to grasp what corporate clients want and what they expect from outside counsel. It is startling that some of my brothers and sisters in other private practice firms spend their time inveigling their clients into unwanted and unrequested expedited prosecution. Do they have nothing better to do?<br /><br />Would the anonymous in house liaison care to write more about what is irksome about outside counsel? I hope so. I'm hungry to read more.<br /><br />And by the way, in house, we are not all so careless of the needs of our clients. I am sorry you have had poor experience. Perhaps a switch to different outside counsel would help your employer's business?MaxDreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-13931706431793563512015-07-20T11:20:01.028+01:002015-07-20T11:20:01.028+01:00As an in-house patent liaison assistant, I am tire...As an in-house patent liaison assistant, I am tired of our agents wasting time and money on cases. For example, they are always writing to other agents or patent offices trying to speed up examination without my permission. Or, I have to spend time declining their offers to request acceleration for no good reason, but expecting me to provide the appropriate reasons. Nothing but a bunch of self-serving con artists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-26077875931426932162014-10-17T16:14:51.326+01:002014-10-17T16:14:51.326+01:00Anonymous @ 14:06,
How about the client only will...Anonymous @ 14:06,<br /><br />How about the client only willing to pay £2k...? Or less?<br /><br />What if that client still wants gold? <br /><br />Or is this topic too "tinny," too tedious to read through and grasp the point of the discussion (for the other anonymous)?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-46556720408956774852014-10-17T14:06:03.246+01:002014-10-17T14:06:03.246+01:00As a late arrival to this debate, can I just say t...As a late arrival to this debate, can I just say that I'd be delighted to talk to the client happy to pay £20k for a new draft? Especially if your ideas are in the physics/mechanical field...<br /><br />Actually, on reflection, I'd still be very happy indeed to talk to the clients who are apparently happy to pay £10k.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-63314205460292602892014-10-16T19:46:46.181+01:002014-10-16T19:46:46.181+01:00This has become extremely tedious. Must be down t...This has become extremely tedious. Must be down to my ignorance I presume. I can see how the billable hours build up for your clients.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-56180494827652200112014-10-16T18:00:00.947+01:002014-10-16T18:00:00.947+01:00My dear anonymous,
You continue to not bother ful...My dear anonymous,<br /><br />You continue to not bother fully reading my replies to you. That alone goes a long way to explaining the "ignorance" that I mention.<br /><br />I am very happy that you have been successful in your own neck of the woods - I really am. I do hope you realize just how little that success has to do with the topic under discussion, that there exists a range of work product - and a range of costs for that work product - and that the term "gold-plating" likewise has a distinct meaning (that you likewise have not bothered to understand before you mounted your very tall steed and deigned to proclaim your view must be accepted by all of the world).<br /><br />Please though, before you jump to the conclusions you hold so dear, please actually read what I have written.<br /><br />Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-29510927629805383842014-10-16T16:39:07.916+01:002014-10-16T16:39:07.916+01:00p.s. I am an attorney and I do not need to have di...p.s. I am an attorney and I do not need to have discussions with counsel. I have been drafting applications in the chemical and pharmaceutical fields for over 20 years. I have never spent anything approaching 200 hours drafting even the most complex of applications. My applications have proceeded to grant in many territories around the world, protect highly valuable products, and have been the subject of large licensing deals.<br /><br />If an attorney charged £50000 for a draft, I would refuse to pay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-73116731808121802372014-10-16T16:28:07.875+01:002014-10-16T16:28:07.875+01:00Presume away.
Then, you can explain how it is &qu...Presume away.<br /><br />Then, you can explain how it is "ignorance" to not be aware of a non-scientific theory generated by management consultants.<br /><br />£50000 for a competent draft? Up to 200 hours drafting. I'd get rid of your quill and buy a pencil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-33354211601304447622014-10-16T11:48:10.501+01:002014-10-16T11:48:10.501+01:00It's like the Bermuda triangle, except you los...It's like the Bermuda triangle, except you lose your IP, rather than ships.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-56427363571511854982014-10-16T09:30:46.794+01:002014-10-16T09:30:46.794+01:00It is irrelevant to me whether people believe I am...It is irrelevant to me whether people believe I am incompetent or not as good as I make out.<br /><br />To summarise the "real-world" position:<br /><br />I am the client.<br />For £10,000 I expect gold.<br /><br /><br />We are in the process of identifying new firms to try out. It would be a help, therefore, for those attorneys in here who can only provide tin for £10,000 to identify themselves so that I can make sure they're not on the list. We can spend £20,000 if justified as such figures are peanuts to us. However, I don't like to waste peanuts.<br /><br />Anon at 20:28 can personalise his arguments all he likes. As a client who has never heard of the project management triangle of trade-offs (seriously?) before, I'll just stick to good old-fashioned experience and knowledge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-62582753565806513362014-10-16T08:43:01.208+01:002014-10-16T08:43:01.208+01:00Person A states low quality drafting is not accept...Person A states low quality drafting is not acceptable and notes their experiences with patent attorneys used by his firm.<br /><br />Persons B et. al. challenge Person A with the argument that Person A is not a very good drafter themselves, is not even a patent attorney, has probably never had their work scutinised by others, and so on.<br /><br />Why do commentators believe challenging the competence of Person A defeats their argument? If they are correct, it seems to me that all that is proven is that Person A is as incompetent as those he criticizes. Person A's argument would still stand.<br /><br />Why is it that so many attorneys have a problem with the importance of drafting high quality specifications?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-37296233728910452092014-10-15T20:32:32.491+01:002014-10-15T20:32:32.491+01:00Yes, it has on several occasions passed external d...Yes, it has on several occasions passed external due diligence. Litigation? I don't believe so, yet, but as I stated earlier, applications should be drafted to provide the best chance in litigation, whereas several commentators believe they should not be: "Any old tin will do", which you seem to agree with.<br /><br />As regards specifics, where to start?<br />Unclear claims. That is, from a very scope of protection viewpoint, as opposed to just from an EPO examiner viewoint.<br /><br />Novelty. I would certainly be a novelty for the claims drafted to be novel in view of the art provided to the attorneys. Apparently, if the examiner doesn't find it or realise its significance, it doesn't matter.<br /><br />Inventive step. Let's not worry about describing an actual invention shall we? Since when did that matter? We can always attempt to explain the invention in oral proceedings and hope the examiner doesn't spot there was never any mention of possible (real or imaginary) advantages in the application as filed.<br /><br />Scope of protection. Last but not least. The big PP poo poo. Real life is, unfortunately for private practice attorneys (PPs), not the a CIPA or EQE exam question. The patents are supposed to cover real examples and provided protection against real competitors. A better understanding of the subject-matter would be helpful here, but hey, that biologist from Bath knows a thing or two about microchip design and jet propulsion and even dabbles in a spot of quantum theory. So much so that he/she can be both a pharmaceutical expert and an electronics expert at the same time. No Heisenberg uncertainty where PPs are concerned.<br /><br />My broad brush is a magic brush as it only covers those covered by my criticisms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-14673830006905615442014-10-15T20:28:24.319+01:002014-10-15T20:28:24.319+01:00This is Anonymous @ 11:29 replying to Anonymous @ ...This is Anonymous @ 11:29 replying to Anonymous @ 13:38.<br /><br />You ask a question about oddity and only highlight your lack of reading comprehension. My post specifically noted your inability to grasp the earlier point, and somehow you have construed the post as to some inane admission that I cannot draft a high-quality patent application in a week.<br /><br />If you use this type of logic in your patent drafting, I would say that your view of "high quality" is necessarily suspect.<br /><br />Further, I do not see why you insist on making this a personal "I could do better" type of argument. The plain fact of the matter is that a whole spectrum of drafting quality is not only possible (due to the well understood Project Management triangle of trade-offs), but that <i>that</i> spectrum of options is a decision point for the client to make - and the client does routinely make such decisions. As a further solid example, the level of a pre-writing clearance search varies tremendously.<br /><br />I do not understand the animus that you seem to be overcome with on this rather straight forward topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-18251033639696902032014-10-15T16:38:51.674+01:002014-10-15T16:38:51.674+01:00I doubt someone in private practice would think an...I doubt someone in private practice would think any of their own attitudes are odd. Their favourite joke is<br /><br />Knock Knock.<br />Who's there?<br />Bill.<br />Bill who?<br />Bill for you for time spent on this joke!!! Ha Ha Ha.<br /><br />Remember, you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter and charge a client for it. (unattributed, but contender for CIPA motto?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-29375536966466880182014-10-15T16:20:12.617+01:002014-10-15T16:20:12.617+01:00Anonymous @13:38
"It would be very unprofess...Anonymous @13:38<br /><br />"It would be very unprofessional to cite a patent and point out a serious flaw to the public. Or do you not think so?"<br /><br />Of course it would be unprofessional. But we can deal in generalities here. All you've said is that frequently the product of external drafting is "poor quality" but have in no sense explained why. Are these drafts which were manifestly unclear, not novel, didn't cover commercial products? Did the drafters ignore your instructions or information provided? All you've done so far is be rude and call that an argument.<br /><br />And "internal review procedures"? When your drafting has passed the test of external due diligence and/or litigation, *then* you can brag.<br /><br />"Why would someone who was highly competent do so?"<br /><br />Because we don't like being tarred with your very broad brush...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-48488860389280972452014-10-15T13:38:00.841+01:002014-10-15T13:38:00.841+01:00Anon at 11:29: Isn't it odd that you believe ...Anon at 11:29: Isn't it odd that you believe a non-attorney could draft a high-quality patent application in a week, whereas you cannot?<br /><br />Anon at 11:39: No and could but no. And you can forget about pulling the 'told you so anonymous nonsense'. My patent drafting has been assessed by high quality attorneys in internal review procedures designed to maximize quality across the organization. So, I have been very happy to risk having my work subject to possible negative criticism, only to find it appreciated for the high quality it is.<br /><br />I shall not provide examples of poor drafting for my current firm or others because that would be unprofessional and I must act in the interests of my employer and also not act against the interests of previous employers. It would be very unprofessional to cite a patent and point out a serious flaw to the public. Or do you not think so?<br /><br />To be honest, I can only imagine those who aren't very good at drafting being critical of my comments and questioning my own ability. Why would someone who was highly competent do so?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-5596423870182381732014-10-15T11:39:46.570+01:002014-10-15T11:39:46.570+01:00@Anonymous Tuesday 12:17
Why don't you give u...@Anonymous Tuesday 12:17<br /><br />Why don't you give us some real examples of what you mean here, rather than just slinging mud at those of us in private practice?<br /><br />Perhaps you could also give us the number of a granted patent that you drafted, so we can all check up on that as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-30274049109231515212014-10-15T11:29:04.580+01:002014-10-15T11:29:04.580+01:00Anonymous @ 08:52,
You want to give away solid go...Anonymous @ 08:52,<br /><br />You <i>want</i> to give away solid gold at the price of tin....?<br /><br />Your post shows several things:<br /><br />- You do not get the analogy<br />- you are not an actual attorney<br />- you would not be in business long if you were an actual attorney<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-39409556066790916622014-10-15T08:52:23.560+01:002014-10-15T08:52:23.560+01:00Thank you 20:43 for providing me with the price of...Thank you 20:43 for providing me with the price of tin: £10K a pot.<br /><br />For £10K, at £300 per hour, I would spend 33.33 hours on a draft. Roughly a week of work with no distractions. In a week, I would draft applications that are not only gold-plated, but solid gold with seams of platinum forming a glorious design. It would be delivered with orchids, bred especially for the application and delivered to the patent office on a virgin unicorn.<br /><br />Next to my draft, I suggest your pot of tin would look and smell like garbage. It would also give the owner a nasty allergic rash they weren't expecting at an important milestone in their project's life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-20355876689326756202014-10-14T21:04:41.945+01:002014-10-14T21:04:41.945+01:00Anonymous of 18:24:00 - would you care to justify ...Anonymous of 18:24:00 - would you care to justify that? You seem to be interpreting "The claim or claims shall be clear and concise" as saying "You can write any old claims you want to, as long as you amend them to be clear and concise if and when you decide you want a patent". I can't see anything in the former wording to suggest that the applicant has a "right" (your emphasis) to do this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com