tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post2600115481396939269..comments2024-03-28T16:45:51.051+00:00Comments on The IPKat: More EQE nonsenseVerónica Rodríguez Arguijohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05763207846940036921noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-39608101572797187172009-02-13T07:08:00.000+00:002009-02-13T07:08:00.000+00:00What struck me as odd about this regulation, was n...What struck me as odd about this regulation, was not the requirement for an extra year of training for UK bachelor’s students, it was the sly way that such an, undoubtedly, discriminatory provision was introduced. Are the EPO not implicitly saying that UK institutions do not provide as high a standard for their first degree students as provided in the more normal European four-year equivalents? Or that those UK qualified patent attorneys with a bachelor’s degree are not as qualified as those with a master’s degree or higher.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-1463454514000195962009-02-11T20:48:00.000+00:002009-02-11T20:48:00.000+00:00This comment is not only aimed at UK agents, but t...This comment is not only aimed at UK agents, but to all agents and examiners.<BR/><BR/>Being a spinless ex-examiner i find the comments in this blog relating to examiners not that kind, however I agree that the skills gained as an examiner have very little to with the job of a patent attorney. I've done an MEng at a good uni, worked as an examiner, worked as an agent and worked in industry choosing which attorneys to work with and I prefer it when I don't have to think out all the obvious and advantageous embodiments of an invention myself due to lack of general engineering knowlege by an attorney, of course most attorneys can draft good applications when no real technical experience is required (e.g. in paper A). I also wish I had had the technical knowledge I have now when I was an examiner, it would have made decisions on inventive step much easier! In my view the best or most difficult university engineering/science courses offer the least practical experience, and this is what I think can be very helpful for the work of drafting patents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-4686796424701973542009-02-11T15:30:00.000+00:002009-02-11T15:30:00.000+00:00i guess it depends on what kind of work you want t...i guess it depends on what kind of work you want to do having done the eqe. If it is mainly fighting for rights before the EPO then I agree this extra/technical year is irrelevant. If your work is mainly writing applications then I think this technical year would be extremely useful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-69745480358886408652009-02-11T15:10:00.000+00:002009-02-11T15:10:00.000+00:00Re: Anonymous @ 7.05 and 1.06(form Anonymous at 11...Re: Anonymous @ 7.05 and 1.06<BR/>(form Anonymous at 11.53)<BR/><BR/>Your point that "UK students are particularly good at passing the eqe it doesn't mean they have all the experience which is required to be professional rep" should really be applied to all nationalities... passing the EQE is only one step towards being a good competent Patent Attorney.<BR/><BR/>However, it should be remembered that the British success at the EQE is *not* a coincidence. The majority of the UK profession sit the CIPA finals before the EQE's. The UK exams are generally considered to require a higher standard than the EQE's. By the time it comes to the EQE's we're battle hardened veterans in comparison to many of our European compatriots (and the trick is then to adjust to the formalistic EPO style examinations rather than using the pragmatic UK approach).<BR/><BR/>Now I can't compare the CIPA exams to the German exams but I'm certain that the CIPA exams teach a UK attorney far more of the attributes required to be an able professional representative than a year of technical experience could.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-61355267097105485782009-02-11T14:05:00.000+00:002009-02-11T14:05:00.000+00:00Anon @Feb 11, 1:06:00So, because you saw one UK pe...Anon @Feb 11, 1:06:00<BR/><BR/>So, because you saw one UK person you thought to be incompetent, you think all UK candidates should undergo an extra year's legal training? Looking at the EPO database of EPAs by country, this is one EPA out of about 1800 based in the UK (there will be some EPAs practising in states other than their home one, but it gives a rough estimate). Hmm. Doesn't seem like a persuasive argument to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-7916680758618487542009-02-11T13:06:00.000+00:002009-02-11T13:06:00.000+00:00no i'm not an epo examiner! but i was there a few ...no i'm not an epo examiner! but i was there a few months ago witnessing a pretty incompetent UK agent during opposition proceedings (to be fair i've also seen some very good UK agents). My point is just because UK students are particularly good at passing the eqe it doesn't mean they have all the experience which is required to be professional rep. The exam can't test everything (and I wouldn't want it to be any longer!).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-23659484965389358452009-02-11T11:53:00.000+00:002009-02-11T11:53:00.000+00:00RE: Anonymous @Feb 10, 7.05We should all standardi...RE: Anonymous @Feb 10, 7.05<BR/><BR/>We should all standardise on the German model, eh? Do you work for the EPO by any chance?!?!<BR/><BR/>(In all seriousness, the British profession is highly competent, well respected and excels in the EQE without this requirement - if it ain't broke don't fix it!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-63769719208829510202009-02-11T10:08:00.000+00:002009-02-11T10:08:00.000+00:00Er...to the Anonymous before last, I must point ou...Er...to the Anonymous before last, I must point out that a normal Diplom-Ingenieur degree (from a Technische Hochschule or Universität) is usually considered to correspond to a MSc, since it takes a very minimum of 9 semesters (plus six months' internship and a degree thesis), and opens directly the way to a doctorate. (In practice, few manage a Dipl.-Ing. degree in less than 12 semesters.) It's a Diplom-Ingenieur (FH) - from a Fachhochschule - which <I>may</I> be considered to correspond to a BSc, since you'll need an additional academic qualification before entering a doctorate program. (Also, you need the <I>Abitur</I> baccalaureate to enrol in a TH or U, whereas a FH can be entered with a vocational secondary education degree).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-20789646953913398362009-02-10T19:05:00.000+00:002009-02-10T19:05:00.000+00:00To become qualified before the DPMA you have to pr...To become qualified before the DPMA you have to prove that you have worked for a year doing technical practical work (having nothing to do with patents!). This should also be a requirement for the eqe as it is this practical experience which can't be learnt sitting in an lawyers office and which will be useful for the rest of the career.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-13078189346473776662009-02-10T18:44:00.000+00:002009-02-10T18:44:00.000+00:00As an ex-UKIPO examiner now working in a german pa...As an ex-UKIPO examiner now working in a german patent department it is not uncommon to see trainees (Praktikant) in their 30's, everything takes longer here! What is apparent is that a bachelor degree from the UK (even from Oxbridge) cannot be compared to a bachelor degree (or Diplom-Ingenieur)from Germany who in my view gain significantly more knowledge and experience during their degree course (and not just the ability to learn and forget large volumes of information quickly). This missed experience cannot however be compensated by an extra year of studying for the eqe, which UK students excel at anyway due to this focus of passing exams during their school and degree work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-24699540802570175972009-02-10T16:31:00.000+00:002009-02-10T16:31:00.000+00:00Also, in England, children start formal schooling ...Also, in England, children start formal schooling in the term when they turn five, so I went to school at four years old. Whether starting school this young is actually beneficial is another thing, of course...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-20264196190026145352009-02-10T15:47:00.000+00:002009-02-10T15:47:00.000+00:00It would also not be good if the EPO were to reali...It would also not be good if the EPO were to realise that a Cambridge degree only requires nine 8-week terms of actual study. They do get confused by a BA degree certificate with no mention of the "technical" discipline.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-61234426497912653322009-02-10T15:31:00.000+00:002009-02-10T15:31:00.000+00:00Ah ha. But as an EPO examiner and British you have...Ah ha. But as an EPO examiner and British you have a check and balance whereby experience before the age of 25 does not count - even if that experience is at the EPO, as an examiner! Yes, 21-24 year old British examiners do not get on the career ladder until they are 25 - this arose from the days of national service in many European countries but not in the UK. Consequently some non-UK graduates acquired "experience" doing military service behind the bar (after graduating) while those UK doing examiner's work (after graduation) were not gaining "experience". Funny old world.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the "free honours", I think the writer may be confusing the get one degree, buy a masters scheme at Oxford whereby the Masters is a tag on for a nominal sum (it used to be the order of £25 about 25 years ago) but does (or did) not require any further work or submissions.<BR/><BR/>As for honours/not, Scotland had degrees (3 years) and honours degrees (4 years with 1st, 2/1, 2/2 and 3rd), honours requiring a year longer. If you failed the honours you simply received the degree. The EPO requires at least a 2/1 honours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-65462398194145370432009-02-10T15:19:00.000+00:002009-02-10T15:19:00.000+00:00In England, students start to specialise at age 14...In England, students start to specialise at age 14. I am old enough to have taken O levels rather than GCSEs and at that time took eight subjects (four of them sciences/maths) and for A levels - 2 years study starting at age 16 - took physics, chemistry and maths, with nothing else to disctract from them. By the time I entered university at age 18 to study for my three-year physics degree, I already had five years of specialised physics training. How does this concentrated approach compare with continental systems? <BR/><BR/>One effect on EQE results if this proposal does go through might be that GB candidate pass rates increase even more compared to those from other countries. It certainly doesn't make any logical sense to require an extra year's *legal* training to those who are already outperforming in a *legal* exam!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-14356480382227280142009-02-10T14:34:00.000+00:002009-02-10T14:34:00.000+00:00Actually, Britons may be unaware that this has bee...Actually, Britons may be unaware that this has been a serious source of annoyance for Continentals for a while. Not to enter the EQE, but to become an EPO examiner. You see, before Bolonia, in many countries there was <B>no</B> equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon BSc.<BR/><BR/>EPO staff regulations require that examiners normally be "university" graduates. However, the closest thing there was in several Continental countries to a British Bachelor's, were the "middle" degrees imparted in institutions (like the German Fachhochschulen, the Belgian Hautes Écoles, or the Spanish Escuelas Universitarias) which weren't habilitated to provide doctorate degrees, and thus weren't considered as "universities" by the EPO. Thus, somebody with an English 3-year BSc. in engineering could get in, whereas somebody with a Spanish <B>4-year</B> "ingeniero técnico" degree, Belgian "ingénieur industriel", or German Dipl.-Ing. (FH) couldn't. I'm certain there are quite a few grindable axes out there...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-6085935899219226202009-02-10T12:56:00.000+00:002009-02-10T12:56:00.000+00:00RE. Anonymous@1.19AMDoesn't everyone know that wik...RE. Anonymous@1.19AM<BR/><BR/>Doesn't everyone know that wikipedia should always be taken with a pinch of salt.<BR/><BR/>That comment is nonsense - you can graduate an English university with a first class degree or a second class degree and you get the "honours" part, you can also graduate with a third class degree and no honours. You can also fail and not graduate at all. How does that make the honours part free?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-28782592313353678902009-02-10T11:03:00.000+00:002009-02-10T11:03:00.000+00:00The answers to both the above can be found by comp...The answers to both the above can be found by comparing the current EQE regulation with the new proposal. The current regulation identifies certain qualifications: a master’s degree, a bachelor’s degree with honours, a maîtrise, a diplôme de l’enseignement<BR/>supérieur, a Hochschuldiplom or equivalent as sufficient qualification for sitting the EQE after 3 years. The new proposal instead merely refers to the length of the course. If a degree is obtained after 3 years, 4 years training is required before sitting the EQEs. If someone takes a 4 year course, 3 years training is required.<BR/><BR/>The first correspondent’s comments illustrate the absurdity of the proposal. Yes because he/she was better qualified and therefore able to complete his/her degree more quickly the new proposal will penalise them by requiring them to train for an extra year.<BR/><BR/>In answer to the second correspondent, the whole point about the current system is that it acknowledges that there are differences between the education systems in Europe. In England students specialise far earlier in their schooling than on the continent. This means that English bachelor’s degrees tend to start at a higher level and be more intensive and hence cover technical material in 3 years which is covered more slowly in other systems. The issue with “honours” is a bit of a red herring as a pass degree i.e. a degree without honours is essentially a fail under the UK system.<BR/><BR/>What is worrying however is that the new proposal is acknowledged as being discriminatory against UK applicants. However, as the graph in the article shows the status quo does not seem to prevent UK applicants from passing the exam. Nor does there seem to be a clamour of complaint that UK attorneys’ technical education is lacking. So why is there a move to change the rules?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-56438219103441571612009-02-10T01:19:00.000+00:002009-02-10T01:19:00.000+00:00The "honours" part of a bachelor with honours woul...The "honours" part of a bachelor with honours would still save you a whole 2 years. I don't see any arbitrary discrimination at all.<BR/><BR/>Since I'm Dutch I have to rely on <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor%27s_degree" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia</A>:<BR/><I>In England now, most first degrees are assumed to be honours as Third Class honours are actually a relatively low standard.</I><BR/>So it seems students in the UK get the "honours" part essentially for free, which is currently saving them a whole THREE years compared to candidates with a bachelor's degree from other countries. How fair is that?<BR/><BR/>Here in the Netherlands a bachelor's degree at university level takes three years as well, and nobody would expect a candidate with a bachelor's degree to be treated on equal footing with a candidate with a master's degree.<BR/><BR/>I may be misinterpreting things (and again, I'm relying on Wikipedia), but to me it seems that Art. 2 of the <A HREF="http://www.epo.org/patents/law/legal-texts/html/anc_reg/en/ap_i_a134_8_2006_12_17.htm" REL="nofollow">Instructions concerning the qualifications required for enrolment for the EQE</A> is currently unfairly favouring UK candidates with a bachelor's degree with (default) honours. Candidates with a bachelor's degree from other countries (whether it takes 3 years or 4 years) need a total of 6 years of professional experience before entering the EQE.<BR/><BR/>Please correct me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5574479.post-40661061090172154372009-02-09T23:03:00.000+00:002009-02-09T23:03:00.000+00:00I took my degree in Scotland where a BSc is usual...I took my degree in Scotland where a BSc is usually taught over 4 years. However I took 'direct entry' straight to second year, completing my degree in 3 years - this option was only available to those students with top A-level grades.<BR/><BR/>I wonder how the EPO would view this, would I be required to undertake an additional year of technical training over an (arguably!) less able student who took an extra year to complete the same uni course?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com